Conversation with Kim Heil, Casting Director & Associate Producer

Broadway ReFocused is in conversation with Kim Montelibano Heil, Associate Producer and Casting Director at San Diego Repertory Theatre, a theatre that produces intimate, provocative, inclusive theatre. Kim is a dedicated advocate of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion, and places those values at the forefront of all her work. She is especially interested in the intersection of the performing arts and financial literacy, and has sought to dispel the myth of the “Starving Artist” through her Instagram Live Channel, The Nuance. You can follow her at: @thenuance2020.

BR - S1, E6 - Conversation with Adam Tabellija, Biracial Actor of Color

Unit 6 - Kim Montelibano Heil

Spencer Williams: Welcome to Broadway ReFocused. Today we're really excited to have Kim Montelibano Heil with us. She is a casting director at San Diego Rep, as well as the Associate Artistic Producer. Did I say that right Kim?

Kim Heil: Associate producer, close enough.

Spencer Williams: Okay close. but we're really excited to have you today to talk a little bit about casting, diversity and inclusion inside of that process and how things are hopefully changing in the future. But we always like to ask our guests first a little bit about your background and how you, this might be a long question, but just a little bit of a background of how you got to San Diego Rep and into the theater business.

Kim Heil: Yeah. Wow. That is how much time do we have? So, I started as an actor in LA. I primarily did musicals. I discovered, although all of this is in retrospect, I don't think I was thinking this at the time, but I was immensely bored by rehearsals. Which is weird because when I talk to people who are professionals, now, they're like, "Oh, I missed the rehearsal room. I love rehearsals." And I'm like, "Oh my God, I hated rehearsals. Just take me to the actual show." Right? Let's just get to the part when we get to be on stage. And so what I found was that all this work that people were doing, you know, actors were doing to learn their lines to, you know, just their homework.

I hated doing it. And that told me something. I was like, maybe, this isn't what I want to do. Maybe I want to be part of this thing called theater, but maybe being part of the show per se, or being, you know, the process of building this show is not exactly for me. But I didn't know what I wanted, honestly.

Because like everybody else, our first sort of introduction to theater is usually as a performer. But I think, sometimes like, I don't know. I'd been working professionally as an actress for about two or three years. I decided I wanted to go to graduate school, but I didn't want to get an MFA. I wanted to do something behind the scenes, but again, I didn't know what it was.

And so I researched a bunch of graduate programs and I discovered a program called Performance Studies at NYU. And I thought, well, that's vague enough where I think I can build whatever it is that I'm good at within the theater industry or theater world in that grad program. So, I applied, and was the only graduate program I applied to.

And I was actually on tour with the Rockettes at the time. I applied, I got in and then I moved to New York to start studying. And then that basically introduced me to a whole different world of theater, but also two kinds of theater, commercial theater, which was Broadway, theater for money, if one can imagine such a thing. And then also experimental theater.

And I studied with really wonderful people like Richard Schechner, Anna Deavere Smith. And, you know, just being around that kind of virtuosity taught me that if you really want to be in this, then you have to elevate yourself. You have to work really, really hard, and you have to find what it is that you're particularly good at so that you can refine that skill set and then just, you know, catapult yourself to the top of your game, which is essentially what I did.

I realized that, okay, I'm not gonna be Miss Saigon, even though that's what I had originally wanted. And then honestly, in retrospect, I was like, do I really want to play a prostitute in Vietnam? Does that, is that my dream? Like why?  I realized that I needed to do something else in the theater world. And quite frankly, it was not defined for me. It was not something that was sort of an easy path to find. I had to define it myself.  Ultimately we wanted to leave New York, not for me or my husband, just in terms of a long-term plan. We wanted to have children. It was so expensive to live there. So, we moved to San Diego and then in San Diego, because of my work in New York, Jack O'Brien, the director, had been told about me and he wanted to hire me when I moved.

So, literally like two months after I moved to San Diego, he hired me as his assistant. And so I worked for him for a couple of years, as well as the founder of the Old Globe. This was at the Old Globe Theater. And, I worked at the Old Globe for nine years, realized that I wanted to get some leadership experience under my belt, like I knew that on my resume, people needed to see that I had the ability and the experience to lead an organization. So, I jumped on an opportunity to become the Education Director of a youth theater that had originally been the spinoff of the Old Globe. And then, I worked there for three years and discovered that I missed sort of the other, that was youth theater, you know, so I wanted to go back to producing theater.

I got this opportunity to be at San Diego Repertory Theater, four years ago. And you know what it's been it's whoa, it's been a ride. It's been really good. And then COVID happened and now it's like, "What the heck is happening?" So, I'm trying to figure it out. So, that's where we are now.

Spencer Williams: Very cool. As growing up in the Philippines and then also in America, what was that like for your family? When you're like, I want to do theater and I want to go into this business. What was that like for you?

Kim Heil: it was not easy. You know, something that I, talk about a lot, in my own show "The Nuance" is that the general, the conventional wisdom of immigrant communities is that once you're here, you really need to find work that is stable and lucrative and will give you and your family, a comfortable and prosperous life. Both things that are not quite associated with an Arts career in the eyes of many immigrants.

So, my parents were supportive in high school  but when it came time to choose a major, they were like, "So you're going to try to find something that's more stable". And I was like, "Well, what is that?" So I thought about it, I thought about it and I landed on psychology, which has helped me in this world of artists.

I have no regrets there but what was interesting is that in my undergrad, I literally was like the non-theater major hanging out with all the theater majors but I would do all the shows I would do, I did show choir like I was a sort of psych major by day and theater geek by night.  My mom was like, you know, you have a degree in Psychology, you could do HR, you know, as though that's like so exciting HR and I was like, "Yeah, no." And so eventually I think my father figured out that I was not happy. So, he was the one who said, "You know, you need to audition, you need to go audition".

And so I did. And the first audition I did, I booked, and it was not a paying gig. It was a community theater production, but it didn't matter at the time because I was so, I had graduated from college at this point and trying to sort of hold down a real job and the traditional life of nine to five, et cetera, and I was just and unhappy and he saw that and he said, no, go, go audition. And so I did, and I, you know, it was Man of La Mancha and I was one of the ensemble members. Like it was not a big role at all. It was in a tiny theater, but like I said, what it did was it brought me back. It brought me back to my home. It brought me back to my tribe. It brought me back to life basically. And, and then after that, I just never went back to sort of non theater work.

Spencer Williams: Now being on both sides of the table, I think this is something that I encourage students to experience the audition side. And then also to be on the other side where you're looking at all the auditionees, what was your experience as a performer --  as a Filipino in LA, auditioning for roles that maybe were deemed and I'm air quoting "white" or "white traditional" or things. What was that experience like being on that side of the table, and then as you've moved to the other side of the table casting, what was that like for you?

Kim Heil: Well, we're talking about a 20 year difference, right? Because I was doing all of that in the nineties. So, it was a completely different time just in history, right? And just in terms of what's happening in the United States back then, there were a very few opportunities for specific Asian roles.

It's one thing, and this idea of colorblind casting that sort of took hold, I'd say probably in the eighties, maybe, which I don't really believe in anymore or not that I ever did, but I sort of went along with it when I was an actor like, "Oh, cool they're looking for anyone in this part. I can submit for this part." Ultimately it didn't serve me as far as my career to see an array of, color blind casting breakdowns. So, it was hard, it was hard. And I think the thing that I definitely felt was that my aspirations were limited. I could never be, say, a Phoebe on Friends, like I could never be a series regular.

I could be an under five meaning, you know, under five lines or a guest star, you know, or maybe if you're lucky you're a recurring role. So, a lot of my friends in LA at the time, they would book like the doctor roles on ER, right. Cause for a while, that's what they cast Asians in was all the medical roles.

And that was difficult, but to be honest, I didn't question it at the time. It was just the way things were. And as far as theater was concerned, it was around the time that Miss Saigon was taking place. And as far as casting, I mean, a lot of auditions, I auditioned for that show I kid you not like for seven years and every time I would get such good feedback from, and I told Tara well, we'll talk later about Tara Rubin, but Tara Rubin at the time was working for Johnson Lift, which was the casting agency for Miss Saigon. And so she was in the room. Right?  And she was so lovely. Like I have a memory, I joked with her that, you know, I have such PTSD about that time, but I told her, you know, you were amazing. And she was, she was so nice and I always got really good feedback and I always felt like I did a good job and I never booked the show, which was frustrating but also kind of affirming of this idea that I had in the back of my head, that this wasn't really what I wanted to do anyway.

But again, you know, we're talking about one show and now if you compare that to the average actor who is Caucasian, they're not just gunning for Miss Saigon, right? They're gunning for any show that's out there because there's roles for them everywhere. But in musical theater for me, I was like, there's a show called Sianora that, you know, once made waves. And then there's Flower Drum Song, which I also got to the very last round and then I got cut. There's Pacific Overtures, but there's not really any female roles in that so there's like very limited opportunities in musical theater, oh, King and I, of course, I've done two King and I's for God's sake. And so again, we're talking, what did I just name like six, seven shows, eight shows. I ended up doing quite a bit of musical theater. Like I did a few Joseph's because people seem to think, Oh, Joseph, that can be colorblind all sorts of, you know, ethnicities in Joseph. So, I did a few Joseph's I also did, uh, Damn Yankees, you know, I like I did, I did shows that that were not traditionally, uh, Asian in any way, but I think people were starting to think more about, well, why not?

I was actually at a point where Miss Saigon aside, I was actually doing quite well in the musical theater world. But, but again, I had this weird sense that it was like a spidey sense that I was not going to have a lot of opportunities and I was right for that time anyway. It's different now.

Spencer Williams: How have you seen it change? I mean, you've had this experience and, you know, from the nineties till now, it's definitely changed quite a bit. 

Kim Heil: The biggest change that really arrived I think full force has been intentionality. Because that is the key. I think you have to be intentional in your casting. You, not use Spencer, but you know, the general you can say, I want to be a diverse, I want to be anti-racist. You can say all those things, but until you actually start to do the work behind those words, they're just words. So, the intention is what drives the work, right? So, that's, what's happening now. I feel like right now, people are actually saying, "Oh, we have to do more than just say on our breakdowns."

We welcome all people of all ethnicities, LGBTQIA+, of all abilities. Like you can say all those beautiful things and it's important to say them. But there's an extra step. And for many years, people were not taking that extra step and that extra step, because it is quite a lot of work.

You have to go into those communities and you have to engage and you have to invite people to the table for their consultation and expertise. So, for instance, if you're casting a show, like Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime. If you don't have someone who's on the spectrum as part of your team, your creative team, your casting team, you're doing the show a great disservice, but most of all, you're doing the community a great service -- the autism community.

And so the intentionality is what tells you to take that those extra steps to really communicate and engage with the communities that you are representing on your stage and finding ways to bring them into and to be a part of that table where all those creative decisions are made and that's what's happening now that I don't think what was happening even, quite frankly, even a year ago. I'm not sure if they were happening.

Spencer Williams: Just this month, San Diego Rep just posted like kind of a long thing on their website, which I loved, but you know, I'm going to read it because I think it's really  important, but they stated that they wanted to expand the casting process to offer a wider range of opportunities for black indigenous actors of color, LGBTQIA+ , women, neurodiverse and actors with disabilities.

What was that process as a company to come up with that specific language?

Kim Heil:  It was long and arduous if I'm being honest. Because there are people on our team for whom this language is not meer, you know, lip service. If we're going to say it, we're going to do it. So, when, and the reality is when you say you're going to do it and you decide you're going to do it, you have to know that a certain number or, you know, there are, certain resources that you have to be able to tap into: money, time, labor -- in order to do that work, this work doesn't just happen, right?

Again, there's that idea of intentionality. And so the people on our team, and our team, like I said, is diverse, not just across ethnicity, but also generation diversity, LGBT diversity, and so I feel like we were all coming from different viewpoints that when we came to the consensus that this was the language we were going to use, we had to mean it, it all meant so much to each of us.

That statement as sort of, you know, clean and, and smoothly that it goes down was not conjured easily. It was arrived at after weeks and weeks of, really carving out what it was that we wanted to say. And that involves some uncomfortable conversations that involve really examining things that are hard to examine like your budget and your staff to see if you even have the inroads into the communities that we're talking about. And if we don't, do we have the time and the energy to invest into creating those inroads? So yeah, it was, it was, it sounds beautiful. You know, the, the, the statement itself is wonderful and I stand behind it, but it's not one that we take lightly.

So, yeah, we came to it with a lot of work.

Spencer Williams: Yeah. There's a lot of work, I think, that has to happen with this type of intentionality. Tell us a little bit more about, you know, you've created those statements, but I'm sure as a company and as a team, you had to create some new avenues in different ways. Like what are those like at San Diego Rep?

Kim Heil: Creating those inroads that I was talking about. You mean?

Spencer Williams: Yeah.

Kim Heil: The simplest answer, I think that we've been able to do now because of COVID is that the geographic barriers that we had before for instance, we had our Latinx New Play Festival back in, September early September. And as part of that festival we'd produced a reading of a play called Sapiens by Diane Bevano and the main characters in it are neuro-diverse -- are on the spectrum and Diane herself, I don't believe identifies as being on the spectrum, but she had worked with, some folks who were to create the play and then those people we were able to invite to our process. Now, if we were meeting in person, then that would have been difficult because that would have meant that we would have had to fly them out. We would have had to house them. And, that would have been hard to do, just budgetarily but because of COVID, everything's being done virtually.

So, now the budgetary restrictions of geography are no longer as much of a consideration. And that's great in the sense that now we can bring those people onto our virtual table and be a part of that conversation. So, that's one way that we feel like, okay, now we know how to do that, we know how to invite these communities into our table, our conversation.

When things come back, how is that going to look? Right? But now at least we see the absolute critical importance of having them there. Whereas maybe like a year ago there would have been like, Oh, we just can't afford it. Well, now we've had that experience of engaging those people, those experts, and those people who are embedded in those communities.

And we know that you simply cannot tell a story without them in the room. You just can't and you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you know, you need to have these stakeholders and these people who know the experience just on a, on a molecular level.

Spencer Williams: Yes. I think that's so important. And I think you're talking a lot about as well as the intersectionality of how these things connect with one another to be able to tell stories, it's not just about one specific thing, right? It's about, you know, you have a woman writer, but she's also Latinx. And there's also neurodiversity inside of that. So, these are all things that are connecting and yet it's so important that on both sides of the table, that you have that representation so that you can tell the stories correctly.

Kim Heil: Yeah. And you know what, the more connections there are in terms of these intersections, the more questions there are. And so it doesn't get easier, it actually gets harder. But to my mind, these conversations benefit and they are richer, they sometimes can be more difficult. But they are better for the arts and they're better for the community that the art is serving.

Spencer Williams: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I even think even outside of theater, like in education, finding those intersections is actually pretty difficult so that everyone can see. I know in my life, even your identities change, how that plays out for you that sometimes that, you know, certain identities pop up at different times of your life.

And so those, it's always yeah morphing and kind of changing.

Kim Heil: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Spencer Williams: You mentioned Tara Rubin, previous, that you were auditioning for Tara Rubin, and you've just announced that you're going to be working with Tara Rubin

Kim Heil: Casting.

I have been working with her for the last couple of weeks. Yeah.

Spencer Williams: Yeah. So, tell us all about that. That's exciting.

Kim Heil: Yeah, it is. So, we did release the breakdown. So, I feel like I have a little freedom to talk about it otherwise I'm like ah, but, so Jason Robert Brown, who I think you're familiar with, and a book writer, Kenneth Lin, and director Moises Kaufman are part of the creative team of the new musical adaptation of the novel Farewell, my Concubine. It actually was made into a movie that was, that was huge, internationally back in I think, 1993 and what basically happened is Tara saw me speak at a Casting Society of America Diversity or BiPOC panel.

And I guess she liked what I had to say, because a week later she offered me a gig. She wanted me to join her team, her casting team for this project. And I said, yes and we have been in the thick of it ever since. I mean, we really, it's interesting because like, as soon as I knew I was, cause it wasn't like an automatic yes, it was sort of like, okay, let me, I read the novel in three days, because I wanted to know, does this material resonate with me. Do I see an in for myself? Casting is interesting work and I wanted to. Obviously, I want to do a good job, but I also wanted to be able to bring something to Tara that maybe she felt like she needed. And, Tara is a pro. I mean, she's been doing this for a long time and she's cast some of the biggest shows on Broadway and bring the biggest tours, you know? And like she has a force, she and her team are incredible. And so, I was kinda like, well, I need to then know that I'm gonna fill out this team in a way that they need. Right? I did some soul searching and I did eventually land on yes. And so I did join them. And it's been amazing and it's a lot of work, but I will say like the moment I said yes, in my head, I started right away. Like I couldn't wait, I couldn't wait to like, start creating lists, you know, of actors I knew and dreaming, you know, and because casting is like, it's a whole lot of imagination. It's a whole lot of taking what you think you know about an actor and then plugging them in to this sort of imaginary play that hasn't existed yet or, show.

And that's fun for me, that kind of creativity is so fun but what's even more fun is when you are, you know, when you go through the audition process and the actors give you something that you don't even expect, or didn't even enter your consciousness, this quality that they bring. And that's so fun, that's so wonderful. And that's been happening quite a bit. So, I'm having the time of my life.

Spencer Williams: Within the casting process with Tara I'm assuming that part of the reason, not also because you're amazing, but also like there's some intentionality right. I like getting the right people behind the table. I'm assuming that's part of the story. Yes?

Kim Heil: Yeah. Yeah. I make it, you know, I say all the time that I don't represent all Asians, you know what I mean? Like you cannot use me as a stand in for all Asian thinking, all Asian representation, just because I'm in the room does not mean all of a sudden that your room is an expert on casting Korean actors like that. It doesn't work that way. But if you can sort of understand it from the place of, I navigate the world with this face, with this color skin and hair, and that is a similar experience to my Pan-Asian brothers and sisters, and that we culturally have similarities that that obviously a white person does not have.

Then you can start to recognize where having the voice of someone like me in the room is important and does have purchase because, you know, I'll give you an example. So, I've seen a play where, just an interesting thing, and it really is case by case, but like I saw a play where a Filipino character was played by a Chinese actor and I immediately, immediately sensed the inauthenticity of that performance, not through any fault of the actor, it was merely that as a Filipino, I immediately just clued in that that person did not know what that life experience was. And that's just purely my own thing. Right? As an audience member, and I was not casting like I wasn't trying to be a professional. I was really just an audience member at that moment, but I know what that feels like, that jarring sense of if this person does not know what that, what being Filipino is like, and I do. And so even just that understanding, even that, just that experience, I think is helpful in the context of casting a very specific Asian show.

Spencer Williams: I'm glad you mentioned that cause I think that it is really important that we think, "Oh, well, an Asian character can just drop in." And, yet these are different countries, different cultures, different experiences.

Kim Heil: So different. Yes. Yeah. And you know what I've evolved in that like even two, three years ago. I wasn't necessarily believing what I believe now. I do feel like it has been a process and an evolution of how, I think things, how I experienced things and then also how the world should be experiencing things.

Spencer Williams: Yeah. And I think that authenticity is really important to the experience and to telling stories, right? Like this is what our job is and the theaters that tell stories and...

Kim Heil: Yeah, but you know, again, this brings up yet another question and I'm telling you, none of this is comfortable. I have to be willing to sit in a place of discomfort when I talk about this stuff, because I know at any given moment I could be wrong about something.

And so one perspective that has been presented to me, which I totally understand is, listen to Americans for years and years and years, white Americans for years and years have played all kinds of other white people, right? So, you have a German person who can play Dutch or an Italian person who can play a Spaniard or even an Irish person playing someone who's Australian. Right? So, like there's so much, mobility, even within the white community of artists and actors, and that's a real privilege. So, once we start getting into this question of authenticity, are we going away from that? Or are we going away from that privilege? I don't have the answer to that, but the question really is, is it not a privilege for a Korean actor to be able to play a Japanese character or a Chinese character or a Filipino character. Is that not a way that we can sort of own a privilege that has been previously owned by a white class, a white willing class. I mean, I'm sorry to, to sort of use, you know, these sort of racialized terms, but that's the world we're in and no, I don't have the answer to that, but I think about it a lot, you know, in terms of what we're doing right now, I have some pretty clear ideas of how this particular project, should go, can go. But in terms of a general idea of where we are with diverse casting, there are some real difficult conversations that I think we all have to be willing to have.

Spencer Williams: And I love that you brought that up and I think it is an incredibly difficult  topic. And I think there is a lot of discomfort in it, and I think that we should live inside that discomfort.

I mean, even looking at Vice President Elect Kamala Harris, you know, there has been a lot of talk about things like the biracial, right. Is she a black woman or is she an Indian woman or can she be both? And when in her experience is that reality showing up for her? And I know a lot of specific biracial actors are not ethnic enough for the role and then also not white enough for the role and...

Kim Heil: That is so hard.

Spencer Williams: This is their experience. This is who they are.

Kim Heil: It's so, so hard. And, you know, let me tell you, it's not just biracial. Like there are people, we're in a global, you know, not right now, but because no one's traveling right now, but, even, you know, last year, let's say, if you were to freeze a moment in time in 2019 people like you and I could sort of travel and work around the world.

Right. I was raised in Indonesia. I'd left the Philippines when I was six. I grew up in Indonesia and you know, I lived there till I was 17. So, those are my formative years. Right? And I struggled because I was not Filipino enough for a lot of my family members, because I was removed from that culture.

And, but I was certainly not Indonesian because I was a foreigner in Indonesia and I went to an international school. So, I was taught in English. I was taught American subjects, you know, like, I was already a mutt, even though compositionally, I'm a hundred percent Filipino inside. You know, what do you make of that?

What do you make of that? Right? So, I would go in for Filipino roles and I actually would have my mom read the sides to me first, so I could hear her accent. And then I could take that and be like, okay, thanks mom. And then like, I go and audition for these Filipina roles, but I needed to like practice my Filipino accent.

You know, there are no clear answers in this. It's just hard. My daughter is mixed race. She looks mixed in my mind. My son is mixed race, but he looks like a total native Filipino to me. Like he looks Filipino. He is, you know, dark skinned and dark black hair. Like to my mind, he doesn't have a trace of white in him, but some people disagree.

But you know, like he's mixed race. So, it's just, it's there just too many exceptions to whatever rule we're trying to make.

Spencer Williams: I love that. Well, this is fascinating to talk about this. And I think sitting in discomfort is the right place to be for everyone. Throughout this process, I think COVID has brought to light, a lot of these issues, but also I think hopefully people are having some time to talk about it, to be more intentional around it. And so that when, I'm saying that very intentionally, when we reopen, you know, we can move forward a little bit more inclusive. Yeah. Right. That would be the goal. Yeah. Very cool.

Kim Heil: Yeah. I mean, if anything, like you said, I think that where we are right now is just starting to recognize that we have to be able to be uncomfortable.

Spencer Williams: I love that. Well, we have 10 quick questions. We ask all of our guests, they're kind of rapid fire. So, first thing that comes to mind, so we'll start.  What was the first musical you ever saw?

Kim Heil: I think it was the King and I, and I'm pretty sure Lea Salongo was one of the children in it.

Spencer Williams:  Favorite musical of all time?

Kim Heil: I hate to choose because I have a lot, but my go-to is always Spring Awakening. I just love Spring Awakening.

Spencer Williams: It's no wonder why we're friends. A musical guilty pleasure?

Kim Heil: Honestly, King and I, because like people ask, like, do we, do we really need to do King and I ever again, and I know where they're coming from, but that music, come on, that music. Uh, anyway.

Spencer Williams: Were you in high school musicals?

Kim Heil: Yes.

Spencer Williams: Favorite cast album?

Kim Heil: Again, this is so hard because I go through my phases and but I will never tire. This is like a desert island disc for me, a desk that so dates me, Jesus Christ Superstar with Murray Head.

Spencer Williams: Oh, cool. What has been your favorite piece or production you've had the privilege of being a part of?

Kim Heil: Oh, gosh. You know, when I was at the Old Globe, there were several, that I just loved, loved, loved so much. I can't because you're talking about musicals, right. And musicals, we don't do as many musicals at The REP is why I go to, to the globe. I gosh. Oh my gosh. Well, just cause it's behind you, I'm going to go ahead and say Whisper House, because, because I'll tell you why at the time it was like, revolutionary like people didn't watch music. The musicals did not look like that.

Spencer Williams:  What's a dream show you would like to produce?

Kim Heil: Here Lies Love. Right away. I know.

Spencer Williams: Final question for you, a quick snapshot or moment you miss about live theater?

Kim Heil: There are so many, it's so hard. It's so hard. Okay. So, after opening night, this is so specific. But for any of the shows that at The REP, after like the opening that performance, I stand outside the stage door and in our theater, the stage door directly leaves leads into the lobby. Cause we're in a basement and the actors come out one by one and usually there's like, a swath of fans and family and people waiting to congratulate them. And usually I do this intentionally. I stand there waiting, knowing that they'll come to me first. And they do usually come to me first and it's always this exchange of gratitude of like, thank you. You know, obviously like they ask, they tell me, thank you for casting me, but for me, it's like, thank you for being you. And thank you for auditioning and thank you for committing this time to be part of this piece of art. Thank you for being so good at this. You know, like that's where I'm coming from. And there's this moment of this exchange between me and the actor after opening night, where it's like a genuine, like soul connection and that I totally missed that.

Spencer Williams: I love that. And I love that we're ending in gratitude because thank you for coming and speaking to us and talking to us about your experience and, and how San Diego REP is moving forward. And the intentionality around all of this. This is, this is exciting work.

Kim Heil: Thanks so much, Spencer.